A better Saturday - Jay Maynard

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Sunday, 4 July 2004


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0942 - A better Saturday

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[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
My illusions of SF fandom had to do with openness and acceptance. I saw none of that Friday night, even before the argument escalated.

I'm well past the point where I expect the world to revolve around me...unlike, apparently, you.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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See? There's another barb of hostility with no grounding in reality. (Well, okay. All stand up comics are attention whores, but still.) All I'm doing is calling a spade a spade - ie you being a socially maladapted instigator. That has nothing to do with self-involvement.

SF fandom has oodles of openness and acceptance. Somehow you managed to make the judgement it didn't within a couple hours of arrival at your first Convergence. What were you expecting? Were you expecting fangirls to hug you at the door? Were you expecting people to see you and go "Look, it's TRON man! You were awesome on Kimmel!" You had to say hi to people, talk, join conversations... use actual social skills.

Scifi fandom is a remarkably wonderful thing. It helped me come out of my shell when I became a part of it some 18 years ago as a teenager. And it's a wonderful thing for the 1500ish people who attend Convergence every year, the 800 people who attend MarsCon, the 90,000 people who'll be attending ComiCon in San Diego... yet you, in a couple hours, judge it to be bereft of these qualities.

How incredibly self-absorbed of you.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
What was I expecting?

Instead of "Mocking is appropriate", I was expecting "People shouldn't do it because there are real people on the other side of the screen, and those who do it are idiots and assholes."

Of course, I don't expect you - someone who brags about mocking and trolling in other communities, and therefore is guilty of far more, for far longer, than anything I have done - to understand that.

Perhaps one day someone will gore your ox, and you'll grok in fullness. Until then, I don't expect any more out of you than the hatred and inconsideration for others that your history shows you are quite good at. You see, I've spoke to the victims of your abuse. You write furries off as irrational perverts, while I know them as friends, even though I do not count myself among their numbers. When it comes right down to it, there's precious little difference between Anthrocon and CONvergence.

Not that I expect you to understand, or even make the attempt.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
(Link)
See, you make too many assumptions.

A) My ox has been gored on the Net, believe me. Hell, it's been gored on single-line BBSes before there WAS a World Wide Web. When it happens, I suck it up and move on. That's life, and people who aren't brittle understand that someone saying mean things to you doesn't hurt you unless you choose to let it.

B) You're continuing to attack me. By your own hyperbole, you should be shot. By your own non-hyperbole, you should be removed from the Net.

C) I actually have friends in furry fandom, including some to whom I'm very close. The problem isn't that furries are all irrational perverts, the problem is that furry fandom is rife with tolerance for irrational people and they coddle people with emotional dysfunctions (many of which manifest in romantic involvement with animals or stuffed animals, or the idea of being not "truly" human spiritually) rather than encourage them to seek ways to heal their emotional problems. You are a fine example of the end result. Many in the fandom like my point of view - that furry fandom and SF fandom should not be places where fucked up people should be enabled to continue being fucked up. So though I would never call myself a furry, I do polarize people in the furry community by my contact with them. And that's fine.

D) You've said as bad about Michael Moore as I've said about you, and with about equal justification. Again, your hypocrisy shines.

E) I've hated precisely one person in my adult life. He's dead now, died of old age. He was an abuser, a molester, and I'm lucky I met him as an adult lest I have been one of his victims. You, like so many furries, confuse apathy with hatred. Oh, yes, I'm quite inconsiderate, mostly because I don't enable. I don't enable furries who use furry fandom as a crutch to not address their destructive social and emotional dysfunctions.

F) Mocking and trolling are, for the most part, quite harmless. Often they teach lessons. My favorite troll executed in a Wiccan newsgroup brought the anti-Christian hatred in the group to light, and showed them something they didn't like about themselves, that some chose to change. Having been on the ass end of many a flame myself (one cannot openly be a troll and not receive a ration of shit back.), I can tell you from experience that the only way one can be hurt by it is if one allows oneself to be hurt. Some people seek the victim status, crave it, want to be drama whores. You can usually identify them by either extremely excessive and public self-pitying or extremely excessive whining about being an innocent victim despite how obviously they instigated or perpetuated the conflict.

Many, many furries hate me however. If I had a dollar for every threat of violence and ten for every death threat I've received from furries, some of whom I've never spoken to online or off, I could put a down payment on a nice house.

See, that's another example of what's wrong with you. You assume I never had to deal with being on the receiving end of INTARWEB H8. Anyone threatened to kill you yet? Or your children? I've had both happen to me. And you know why you made that assumption? Because you cannot conceive of someone who had to deal with that shit and not agree with you. You cannot fathom someone with the same data as you reaching a different conclusion. It's another example of your social maladaption and your essential self-absorption.

And you think I'm telling you that because I hate you and I'm inconsiderate. Au contraire. I'm telling you in the hopes you'll wake up and make a change in your life for the better.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
I'm not going to spend the time it would take to refute your argument point-by-point. You're not worth it. However, I will say that mockers and trolls are nearly as destructive on the net as spammers: they destroy meaningful communication by being deliberately hurtful. You may think you're not hurting anyone who doesn't allow themselves to be hurt, but you're flat-out wrong.

I didn't do anything to rate the treatment I got from the Slashdot and Fark denizens. I shared my work, and got a huge ration of grief for it. Yes, I am a victim of that, and nothing you can say will change that.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
(Link)
And you know what, you can believe that. Hell, your only crime was being too dumb to know what the result of posting your cameltoe self would be.

This does not in any way justify your behavior at the panel, your rage at the Saturday morning panel, or your aggressive attacks on the panelists in your LJ. and you have thus far failed to admit any wrongdoing other than letting an offhand remark at the LJ panel get to you as much as it did.

I'll even give you a miss for your repeated attacks upon me, after all, I'm being pretty confrontational with you too. I wonder if you consider yourself my victim... hmm!

As for your position about mockers and trolls... eh. Intelligent people have the right to disagree. They just shouldn't disrupt entire panels in so doing.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
I've already said that I let the comments at the panel get to me more than I should have. As for feeling rage at Saturday morning, I'm not going to apologize for it. I was ready to put Friday night behind me, but apparently nobody else was. (Yes, I should have made the attempt at a peace offering. I have no clue as to whether or not it would have been accepted. I didn't know that same moderator was on the Saturday morning panel until I walked in, shortly after the panel started - which I think even you will admit was not the time to be pulling her aside for a peace offering.)

What you term attacks on the panelists in my LJ was no such thing. I specifically did not mention anyone's name because I did not wish to attack them, only what went on. There's a difference.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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I disagree with you on that. Everyone who was at the panel and many who weren't knew exactly who you were referring to. This is a small fandom, and we know each other.

I also disagree with you about the rage thing. It was, as you admit it was on Friday, very inappropriate. Being ignored on Saturday was an entirely appropriate consequence for your actions on Friday, and you should accept that.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
Everyone who was at the panel and many who weren't knew exactly who you were referring to. This is a small fandom, and we know each other.
And how am I, a newcomer, supposed to know that? 2000 people at a con is, to me, a large crowd, not a small fandom.

If you feel that being ignored was an appropriate consequence for my actions on Friday, then you've confirmed that I have no need to appear at any further Twin Cities cons...for, by that standard, there's no reason to expect that I will ever not be ignored.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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There again you are wrong. Peace offerings and apologies are very routinely accepted in the fandom. But they must be made to be accepted.

I expect you'll withdraw anyway, that seems to be your way. You seem to have a long history of entering a fandom and quickly leaving. I wonder if you'll ever question that the problem lies with you, and not all those fandoms.
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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Oh, and I forgot, I'm really, really not surprised you wouldn't go after my argument point by point. To acknowledge some of it would be to admit error on your part, and you just couldn't bring yourself to do that now could you.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
I've got better things to do with my time than spend an hour hand-crafting a reply to a troll.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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Gosh, and I did that in 20 minutes.

I see you pigeonholed me as nothing more a troll. It's nice to do that to people who say things you don't like, because that way you don't have to consider if what they're saying has any truth to it.
[User Picture]
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
By definition, a troll's arguments are not connected to what he believes. If you don't believe what you're saying, why should I take it seriously? How do I know you're not simply trolling me now?

I didn't pigeonhole you as nothing more than a troll. You did it yourself, by not only admitting it, but bragging about it.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
(Link)
Sure I'm a troll. But I'm also a father, a comic, a computer geek, a scifi fan.

I'm not telling you what I don't believe. I'm more approaching this from the perspective that I'll tell you the unvarnished truth and you'll remain impervious to it.
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
(Link)
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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