A better Saturday - Jay Maynard

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Sunday, 4 July 2004


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0942 - A better Saturday

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From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
(Link)
See, you make too many assumptions.

A) My ox has been gored on the Net, believe me. Hell, it's been gored on single-line BBSes before there WAS a World Wide Web. When it happens, I suck it up and move on. That's life, and people who aren't brittle understand that someone saying mean things to you doesn't hurt you unless you choose to let it.

B) You're continuing to attack me. By your own hyperbole, you should be shot. By your own non-hyperbole, you should be removed from the Net.

C) I actually have friends in furry fandom, including some to whom I'm very close. The problem isn't that furries are all irrational perverts, the problem is that furry fandom is rife with tolerance for irrational people and they coddle people with emotional dysfunctions (many of which manifest in romantic involvement with animals or stuffed animals, or the idea of being not "truly" human spiritually) rather than encourage them to seek ways to heal their emotional problems. You are a fine example of the end result. Many in the fandom like my point of view - that furry fandom and SF fandom should not be places where fucked up people should be enabled to continue being fucked up. So though I would never call myself a furry, I do polarize people in the furry community by my contact with them. And that's fine.

D) You've said as bad about Michael Moore as I've said about you, and with about equal justification. Again, your hypocrisy shines.

E) I've hated precisely one person in my adult life. He's dead now, died of old age. He was an abuser, a molester, and I'm lucky I met him as an adult lest I have been one of his victims. You, like so many furries, confuse apathy with hatred. Oh, yes, I'm quite inconsiderate, mostly because I don't enable. I don't enable furries who use furry fandom as a crutch to not address their destructive social and emotional dysfunctions.

F) Mocking and trolling are, for the most part, quite harmless. Often they teach lessons. My favorite troll executed in a Wiccan newsgroup brought the anti-Christian hatred in the group to light, and showed them something they didn't like about themselves, that some chose to change. Having been on the ass end of many a flame myself (one cannot openly be a troll and not receive a ration of shit back.), I can tell you from experience that the only way one can be hurt by it is if one allows oneself to be hurt. Some people seek the victim status, crave it, want to be drama whores. You can usually identify them by either extremely excessive and public self-pitying or extremely excessive whining about being an innocent victim despite how obviously they instigated or perpetuated the conflict.

Many, many furries hate me however. If I had a dollar for every threat of violence and ten for every death threat I've received from furries, some of whom I've never spoken to online or off, I could put a down payment on a nice house.

See, that's another example of what's wrong with you. You assume I never had to deal with being on the receiving end of INTARWEB H8. Anyone threatened to kill you yet? Or your children? I've had both happen to me. And you know why you made that assumption? Because you cannot conceive of someone who had to deal with that shit and not agree with you. You cannot fathom someone with the same data as you reaching a different conclusion. It's another example of your social maladaption and your essential self-absorption.

And you think I'm telling you that because I hate you and I'm inconsiderate. Au contraire. I'm telling you in the hopes you'll wake up and make a change in your life for the better.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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I'm not going to spend the time it would take to refute your argument point-by-point. You're not worth it. However, I will say that mockers and trolls are nearly as destructive on the net as spammers: they destroy meaningful communication by being deliberately hurtful. You may think you're not hurting anyone who doesn't allow themselves to be hurt, but you're flat-out wrong.

I didn't do anything to rate the treatment I got from the Slashdot and Fark denizens. I shared my work, and got a huge ration of grief for it. Yes, I am a victim of that, and nothing you can say will change that.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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And you know what, you can believe that. Hell, your only crime was being too dumb to know what the result of posting your cameltoe self would be.

This does not in any way justify your behavior at the panel, your rage at the Saturday morning panel, or your aggressive attacks on the panelists in your LJ. and you have thus far failed to admit any wrongdoing other than letting an offhand remark at the LJ panel get to you as much as it did.

I'll even give you a miss for your repeated attacks upon me, after all, I'm being pretty confrontational with you too. I wonder if you consider yourself my victim... hmm!

As for your position about mockers and trolls... eh. Intelligent people have the right to disagree. They just shouldn't disrupt entire panels in so doing.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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I've already said that I let the comments at the panel get to me more than I should have. As for feeling rage at Saturday morning, I'm not going to apologize for it. I was ready to put Friday night behind me, but apparently nobody else was. (Yes, I should have made the attempt at a peace offering. I have no clue as to whether or not it would have been accepted. I didn't know that same moderator was on the Saturday morning panel until I walked in, shortly after the panel started - which I think even you will admit was not the time to be pulling her aside for a peace offering.)

What you term attacks on the panelists in my LJ was no such thing. I specifically did not mention anyone's name because I did not wish to attack them, only what went on. There's a difference.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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I disagree with you on that. Everyone who was at the panel and many who weren't knew exactly who you were referring to. This is a small fandom, and we know each other.

I also disagree with you about the rage thing. It was, as you admit it was on Friday, very inappropriate. Being ignored on Saturday was an entirely appropriate consequence for your actions on Friday, and you should accept that.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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Everyone who was at the panel and many who weren't knew exactly who you were referring to. This is a small fandom, and we know each other.
And how am I, a newcomer, supposed to know that? 2000 people at a con is, to me, a large crowd, not a small fandom.

If you feel that being ignored was an appropriate consequence for my actions on Friday, then you've confirmed that I have no need to appear at any further Twin Cities cons...for, by that standard, there's no reason to expect that I will ever not be ignored.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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There again you are wrong. Peace offerings and apologies are very routinely accepted in the fandom. But they must be made to be accepted.

I expect you'll withdraw anyway, that seems to be your way. You seem to have a long history of entering a fandom and quickly leaving. I wonder if you'll ever question that the problem lies with you, and not all those fandoms.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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Oh, I do have a long history, eh? For someone who only ever heard of me a week ago, you know one hell of a lot about me.

...and what you claim to know is wrong. No, I don't have a long history of backing out of fandoms. Just ask the folks who I had dinner with last night about that. They flew and drove up from Texas, and I drove up from Fairmont, to have dinner together. (Not solely, in their case, but we did make an effort to get together.) We've all known each other for more than 25 years, and have worked together in several related areas in that time. The same goes for more than a few other things I've been involved with.

In fact, I went to CONvergence fully expecting to find yet another group to spend too much time with. I was sadly disappointed. At this point, any group with which you are as closely associated as Twin Cities SF fandom appears to be is a group I want nothing to do with.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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Oh, and I forgot, I'm really, really not surprised you wouldn't go after my argument point by point. To acknowledge some of it would be to admit error on your part, and you just couldn't bring yourself to do that now could you.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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I've got better things to do with my time than spend an hour hand-crafting a reply to a troll.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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Gosh, and I did that in 20 minutes.

I see you pigeonholed me as nothing more a troll. It's nice to do that to people who say things you don't like, because that way you don't have to consider if what they're saying has any truth to it.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
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By definition, a troll's arguments are not connected to what he believes. If you don't believe what you're saying, why should I take it seriously? How do I know you're not simply trolling me now?

I didn't pigeonhole you as nothing more than a troll. You did it yourself, by not only admitting it, but bragging about it.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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Sure I'm a troll. But I'm also a father, a comic, a computer geek, a scifi fan.

I'm not telling you what I don't believe. I'm more approaching this from the perspective that I'll tell you the unvarnished truth and you'll remain impervious to it.
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From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)
The unvarnished truth as you perceive it. As you have no doubt realized, I disagree with it.

I only hope you're not raising your kids to think that mocking and trolling is acceptable...for if you are, you're merely inflicting your damage on the next generation.
From:raptavio
Date: - 0000
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I'm raising my children to be honest people, to tell the truth, rather than to lie and accept crap from others.

I'm also trying to teach them appropriate ways to deal with conflict so that they don't end up like you.
From:jmaynard
Date: - 0000
(Link)

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